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Hell hath no fury...
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Zuzu



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Posts: 962
Location: Marin

PostPosted: June 17, 2004 2:17 AM    Post subject: Reply with quote

Heh.. well, I think the introvert/thinker part might be on target, but I bet that they're sensers and I'm an intuitor like you. And more real conflicts come from differences in the intuitor/senser and judger/perceiver arenas.

In general, to a perceiver, nothing is really a big deal, it's all relative. To a judger, it's really all very clear cut.

Myers briggs stuff is an interesting way to look at the world.. it's merely one of many ways to understand and describe our differences. I don't really think it accounts for major stuff like mental illness and/or personality disorders, however. And I like to think that we're each much deeper than one of 16 different personality archetypes!

One of my closest friends is an ENFJ. It's very complementary to my INTP.

I hope I don't come across as saying that their not being there for your child is "okay." I don't mean to say that at all - I'm not trying to explain away or justify their behavior by putting them in a box of personality archetypes. Sometimes how to address conflict and identifying factors that might be motivating or escalating conflict can help lead you to some remedies, new ways to think about or deal with addressing conflicts, etc. I'm certainly not suggesting that what they did was okay, had integrity, was adult-like or reflects a sensitivity toward their grandchild...

I think you're left with figuring out how to have a productive and meaningful conversation with them so that you can find some kind of resolve.. so that you can and do get the closure you seek. I think it was Ben Franklin who said that the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different response. So however you've approached and/or dealt with stuff like this in the past... don't repeat those approaches.. they haven't worked and/or gotten you what you want or need.

I know you'll figure this out.. one way or another. AND, I'm sorry that they failed your child too...

-Zuzu
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Zuzu



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PostPosted: June 17, 2004 12:50 PM    Post subject: Reply with quote

Margaret,

Personally I don't mind if you print anything out. I'm glad all this falls in rants as it's not neatly anything else.. heh. I DO find that once we get our recovery from addiction underway we want to start really examining our relationships with ourselves, with others...

I hope our goals are to be fufilled, happy, content and joyful individuals - married or not, with children or not, with in-laws or not. If you're not happy Margaret, then get your butt over to Rach's church. I know you have been in pain, but better to be in pain and feel happy than be in pain and suffer from loneliness and boredom too.

Maybe this is unnecessary, but I just want to emphasize that myers briggs information doesn't explain everything... regard of personality archetypes, people sometimes have different values, principals, ideas of socially acceptable behavior, beliefs, attitudes and interests and these differences can cause conflict too.

The issues aren't so much about wooing a person into intimacy or manipulating them into being people you want or need them to be, but rather if you do have relationships with them - like in-laws - where you just can't "end the relationship" if it's not working out - it's about compromising and having information that will lead you to creative solutions about compromises to put on the table for discussion.

For myself, I think about what I want and not whether my wants are "right" as much as whether or not they are truly feasible or realistic given the situation. It's reasonable to end relationships when they're not fufilling.. I've done that more than once.

-Zuzu
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Rach



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Posts: 270
Location: Illinois

PostPosted: June 18, 2004 9:26 PM    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have no problem either Margaret, with you printing any of this out. I actually had no idea that anyone would even respond in the first place. It does shed a lot of light into what pre-existing factors might motivate a person to behave or view things in a way that someone else would think is totally foreign. It certainly makes the world an interesting place!

I would like to share with you, Margaret, that as an extrovert, I have felt, at times, that people either view me as a lot of fun/lots of energy/upbeat/entertaining or annoying. The 'extrovertedness' is my comfort area though. So, when I'm somewhere where I don't know many people, or I feel uncomfortable, I'm usually the one to strike up a conversation or say something funny/witty. This behavior is what I term being "on". It's not insincere behavior, it's comfort behavior. However, because it comforts me to make others happy/feel like the belong/comfortable, it also drains me when it's not reciprocated (like with my in-laws). My expectations of others tend to be equal to what I'm willing to do. I have learned the hard way that having those expectations only sets me up for disappointment. The hardest lesson is only expecting what each person is willing to give. I have a hard time swallowing the "unjustness" of that, but my intellect tells me that is reality. I really believe that we can choose our reactions...but we have to adjust our paradigms first.

I also think that with my in-laws I sometimes feel rejected...which goes beyond them not meeting my expectations. Because I have some esteem issues and my extrovertedness tends to lead me to be a people pleaser, feeling rejected is a gigantic blow to my self-esteem. My knee-jerk reaction is to be angry, but deep inside I'm terribly hurt. Those feelings and behaviors are only under my control. I determine how much weight to give their comments and behaviors. Logically, we have nothing besides our family in common. I wouldn't do or behave or make choices similar to them. That is an established fact that isn't going to change. So, their views, perceptions, judgements, bad behaviors really don't (or shouldn't) have much weight with me in how I perceive myself and how I react. So in theory, when they say or do something that goes against my grain, that should be well within my expectations of them. My reaction to what is inside of my expectations of should be minimal at best (unless obviously, it is directly effecting my kids negatively).

That being said, you asked about my husband's relationship with them. It's EXACTLY as I described above. He's very aloof about everything. No, he doesn't think what they say or how they behave is always very nice or "right", but it's well within his expectations of them, so it doesn't bother him NEARLY as much as it does me. Now, it does bother him that it bothers me. He has and will let them know when they have been inappropriate because he doesn't like to see me hurting. However, the few times he has intervened have done nothing but make them defensive and suggest that we are too sensitive.

Zuzu, for the record, I absolutely appreciate the way you bring a "different take" to situations to the table. You have been a wealth of information on this particular topic, and have honestly helped me work through the larger picture a little bit. I think we're both in tune with the fact that while many factors make people behave the way they do, it is interesting to note that certain groups of characteristics can produce certain views and behaviors.

I think your last line about wants parallels my earlier discussion about expectations. My expectations of some people are higher than others. The lower my expectations are of someone, the less energy I am willing to put into that relationship. In the case of my in-laws, beyond what I see as insensitivity and ignorance, they've never done or said anything hurtful directly to my children. In fact, both kids enjoy them when they are spending time together. For that reason, I feel like I have to maintain a cordial relationship with them. I am learning slowly that a cordial relationship is all that I may ever have no matter how hard I work at it (because I'm the one that ends up reacting by getting upset when I do work at it). I also want my boys to have the exposure to their grandparents because I do think it's important in so many aspects of their growth and development. That will change if something did happen that directly affected them.

It's funny but all this dissection has REALLY diffused me?!?!?
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Leona



Quit Date:
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Posts: 1838
Location: Alpena, Michigan

PostPosted: June 18, 2004 11:22 PM    Post subject: Reply with quote

I am curious as to where you would place me in this myers briggs thing.

I am happy to be alone but can function in a public or party situation even to the point of being charming and funny. I am able to be alone in a crowd but also at some level like being in that crowd. I am comfortable with my self and uncomfortable meeting strangers so when I do meet some one I have never met before I do two things first I am very quiet for a while and then venture into the conversation that I have either initiated or someone else has. I am also very very stubborn and self rightous especially when it comes to my kids being wronged. I am very very protective. I once had a teacher removed from a school for making my son cry in front of the class and she found it funny. (ooh that burned me up) I will also be the first to admit I am very very insecure. All of my life I have dealt with a family that thought I was "wrong" abpiut the way I felt, talked, opinions, weight, religion. Just about everything. If it had not been for my grandmother I proabably would not function at all today. I also dig my heels in when I know I am right and will not give an inch. And then there are times Iknow I am right and have a load of doubt that I am(the self confidence problem) but still dig my heels in and stand strong and tall. I get angry, unhappy, sad, then happy, laughter, joy and these emotions can crop up one right ofter the other (hence the meds I am on. am called emotionally disturbed not dangerous just annoying) I can also do well in areas where I have to deal with people and do it well. I was in a abusive marriage for 15 years and did not leave as he had me brainwashed that I could not "do things for myself" for years. I finally left and found out I can do it and I like being me and I have worked very hard at being me. I feel I am a leader and a follower when I need to be. I can be alone and like it or I can be in a room of people and like it.

This is me somewhat. And I am sure you can kinda gather the rest from the other postings.

Oh and rach some grandparents and parents alike just pick favorites sometimes even without realizing it. They do not mean to slight it is just the way they are and don't necessarily mean to be insensitive or clueless. But in a real sense they are clueless. My x mother in law was even though she could see what was going on with her son and me and the grandkids. I have a better relationship with her now I am divorced then I ever did when I was married. Just give them some time and let them work it out on their own they may come around and if they don't it is their loss. yes I know it it the kids loss to but one day they may understand not right now but someday. I don't mean to sound insensitive or uncaring but sometimes you have to be or life will eat you alive.

Two months, one week, 12 hours, 22 minutes and 6 seconds. 2740 cigarettes not smoked, saving $472.76. Life saved: 1 week, 2 days, 12 hours, 20 minutes.
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MrsGreatly



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Posts: 61
Location: Australia

PostPosted: June 19, 2004 12:50 AM    Post subject: Just woke up...hope I make sense Reply with quote

Good Morning Laughing WOW...fascinating stuff here. Have learned a lot about me and I haven't even finished my first coffee!
I have always wondered why I hate to go to parties and tried to avoid them ,but usually had to go and got there feeling miserable. On the other hand, I love to entertain. Love to have little parties, big parties, or really huge parties and end up having a great time. Is there an unfulfilled "control freak" hiding inside me somewhere? I hope not, because I have always thought I would much rather be the Indian instead of the chief. I used to belong to lots of clubs...even served as an officer and enjoy it. Worked on the board of directors and producer of our local community theater and had no trouble delegating. In fact, I worked in all facets of the theater, except acting...public speaking of any kind is high on my top 10 things to avoid at all costs. Strange, because one on one I am fine...I love to talk to people.
Female relationships have all been very close and rewarding...except with my mother and 1st mother-in-law. Grandma's, sister, aunties, my lovely daughter and beautiful granddaughter, son's partners 1 female boss, (the other was a drunken harridan on wheels), my close girlfriends, have all enriched my life and have made me a better person for having known them.
Same goes for the male relationships...except for my dad who was abusive and my father-in-law who was mean and judgemental. My first husband, well you would need 10 PhD's in the mental field to figure him out! My 3 sons are all fiercely protective of me...would walk through fire for me...my son-in-law and 2 grandsons are truly gifts from God. My husband, Ron, well, I think you know how I feel about him...blessed is one word that comes to me now.
Why could I forge such good relationships with all these people and yet, my own parents, and in-laws have caused such grief and pain?
My new family and friends here in Australia are all good people. They have accepted me with open arms and are a great comfort for me when I get homesick for America and my family there. I am on a first name basis with most of the shopkeepers here in our little village. We tease each other about our accents and have a great time learning about each other. Yesterday I went to the Oakleigh Nut House to buy some dried beans...there were several Greek, Lebannese, and Aussie men joking and having a great time. They were teasing each other about some of the more unpleasant things that are going on in a certain part of the world...(political correctness was not the order of the day)...and here I come with my bright red Ohio State sweatshirt on...I just said...Uh Oh...I'm American...I better get the hell out of here...they burst out laughing, shook hands with me and said..."you are welcome here anytime." I am trying to be a good ambassador for America and for the most part I am accepted and welcome everywhere here.
So, I feel pretty good about me...just will never figure out for as long as I live what went wrong with mom and dad.
Zuzu...please keep posting...you are a great inspiration...Rach, Margaret, and all you other good women...I read your posts and always learn something...always come away with a good feeling...with strength and courage to face Laughing Demon with a sincere desire to listen to you when you want to vent and to offer solace to you when you are hurting. No matter how far away we may be from each other...we will most probably never meet... we are all sisters and I am so very proud to call each of you my friend. I truly enjoy this "girl talk" it's very special and only women understand why we do it.
Much Love to all of you
MrsGreatly
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Zuzu



Quit Date:
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Posts: 962
Location: Marin

PostPosted: June 19, 2004 11:52 AM    Post subject: Reply with quote

Leona-

PM Margaret and ask her for the links I sent her.. ((I deleted the message in my sent box, Margaret.. if you still have that info.. can you send it to Leona??) There is a free online test that gives you the myer's briggs results. If you enter "Myers Briggs" into a google search engine search, you'll find several free online tests and more information about all the personality archetypes... there's also fee for services stuff out there .. but/and you can do free online tests for the basic results...

Disclaimer: I'm NOT advocating for people buying any services, I don't work for a company that does this myers briggs stuff, nor do I do it in any capacity.. I'm not selling anything here.. I do find it interesting and there are free online tests for those who are interested!

-Zuzu
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Zuzu



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PostPosted: June 19, 2004 5:46 PM    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mrs. Greatly...

Heh.. relationships are complicated, aren't they?

You're an introvert, absolutely! I relate to everything you're saying... though I do lots of public speaking and liking and not liking that has nothing to do with introversion/extroversion... (introverts can do public speaking too... you might not like it but that is likely more a preference than something to do with the personality archetype.) I feel just fine in front of a room of several thousand people.. as long as there is a podium between me and "them" it's all good.

I think the introvert/extrovert thing can sometimes be a big eye opener to people - but more conflicts come from differences judger/perceiver and sensor/intuitor personality components.

I think parent/child relationships are most puzzling at times. I have a great relationship with my mother.. and I count myself very lucky and blessed for that as I know so many people who aren't so fortunate. My father.. we have an okay relationship. He's a committed, practicing and proficient alcoholic. Mostly he's just crazy. I had a therapist who once told me, when I described the situation, that I should simply stop trying to understand it. That it IS crazy and by definition sane people can't and are NOT SUPPOSE to understand it. Imagine that.. how liberating to not have to figure that one out. When I stopped trying to understand the relationship it actually has improved.. at least from where I sit it's very, very tolerable... not because he changed but because I did. I stopped trying to understand it and stopped trying to understand him and just started being. It takes two to play any game and if one of the two just stops playing... well... the game starts to disappear.

Maybe that relates and applies, maybe it doesn't... just a thought.

Rach-

Heh.. you know the headiness of taking things apart CAN diffuse things.. that's how feelers and thinkers can compliment one another at times. Other times, no doubt, it would drive you totally nuts I imagine.. heh.

-Zuzu
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Zuzu



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PostPosted: June 20, 2004 12:10 AM    Post subject: Reply with quote

Margaret-

Some folks are surprised by their Myer's Briggs results, like you being surprised to discover that you were a feeler. But/and remember that this doesn't mean that thinkers don't feel nor that feelers don't think... it's just about how one emotes and reacts. Supposedly as we age we can do a total flip on our personality types.. and some people experience this like a "mid life crisis." Introverts find themselves enjoying more extrovert activities and becoming more of an extroverts.. and extroverts find themselves becoming more introverted, etc. The test that I took provided results regarding the "degree" of introversion, intuitor, thinker, etc. While I'm a thinker, supposedly I'm close to the line on that one...

When I think of feelers I think of that ee cummings poem... "One who pays any attention to the syntax of things can never wholly kiss you .... wholly to be a fool while spring is in the air... my blood approves.... the best gesture of my mind is less than your eyelids flutter, which says we are for each other, lady I swear by all flowers." To me.. that's a total thinker eulogizing a feeler for you! I think feelers are awesome!

-Zuzu
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